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Re: Struggling to be

Hello Dear @PeppiPatty Anne

Good to read your words.

You sound like you have a lot going on for you right now.  I hope the waves are only breaking at your prow, and not over your deck.  🙂

In answer to your thoughtful suggestion, no, it's not silence that I'm craving.  I actually appreciate hearing responses, but I really want to know I'm being talked to, not at.  I know that's something not everyone can achieve, and @CherryBomb was right to say it.  (And yep, I realise it's something I'm very sensitised to, but it's not without reason.)  But I'm really reaching out for people to come close so we can snort each others' breath, so to speak.  It's no mistake that the book that first got me interested in Jungian personality types was called "Please Understand Me".

(Oh, before I forget:  thank you for mentioning the book you're reading;  I haven't read it, and I know almost precisely nothing about bipolar minds, so there's a lot that's new to me.)

But the reason I'm not a rapid-responder when it comes to posts is that I spend a lot of my time these days -- perhaps even the majority of my time -- in a non-verbal space.  I read posts, here and on the Internet generally (I like talking about books and movies too), and I usually have to take them away in my thoughts and sit with them for a while (even days) before I have the first idea of how to respond.  In face-to-face conversations, I'm a Master of Realising Hours Later What I Should Have Said.  (Hmmm, no, not a "Master" -- even hours later, my responses are too often ineluctably lame.)

Ever hear of myotonia?  I first came across the term myotonic goat, a particular breed of goat with reflexes that in response to a fright overload its nerves, immobilising its muscle response and often making it faint and keel over.  People herding animals like sheep in some regions keep one of these goats with the herd, so that if a predator like a wolf attacks, the goat keels over and gets picked off while the more valued herd animals get away.  Humans can be myotonic as well, and I realised I am.  (It's since been confirmed by a doctor.)  It's why I've always been completely crap at sports (except, of all things, tenpin bowling, where I even won a state championship!  And yes, the sound you now hear is me beating my chest!) because, although my reflexes are quick, what they do is make me sieze up in a "startle" response.  And yet I can (could!) dance, and even worked in professional musical theatre.  (A former life.)  But I can't play video games, another thing I always longed to be good at, because by the time I get past the startle response I've already been blasted back to Level One.

The pattern fits for my thoughts and verbal responses as well, particularly (I suspect) as a consequence of the compound trauma.  I have a mental startle response, especially in moments of conflict, get stuck for words and get overwhelmed by something like shame (not least because I feel I've done myself out of the very sense of connection I was hoping for, and because I get that "here we go again" sense of resignation).  It's taken me a lot of my life to understand, but now that I do, it's easier;  it helps defuse the shame.

 

 

Woof.  Longer than I intended.  Tha mi duilich.  ("I'm sorry", but literally "I am troublesome".)

 

tl;dr:  Thanks for being friendly, Anne, and please bear with me.  [sad smile]

 

Kind regards,

Aonaran.

 

p.s. Just my point of view, but to me there's no strong distinction in "only my truth". 🙂  What's true to you is what's true to you, and someone else (even everyone else) not grasping it doesn't make it not true for you.  That's my perspective, anyway, and it's behind the horror I've expressed here of the Helping Professions trying to forcibly impose their realities on individuals.  We can all go astray in our thoughts, and see things through our own filters that hide some things from us, but I feel passionately that our realities shouldn't be given a blanket invalidation, because the "Professionals" have their filters too.  The path towards "reality" has to be a respectful negotiation, I feel.

Re: Struggling to be

Afternoon @CherryBomb CB,

I started to write this last night, but ended up falling asleep sitting at my keyboard and waking up more than an hour later with a molto stiff neck.  Uggh.

So I'm trying again today.  As I said to Anne, sometimes I drift into a non-verbal space and it takes a real effort (or, increasingly often, too much of an effort) to write anything.  (I don't think it's dissociation as such, since I don't feel detached from the world or activities around me, just from structured language.)  It may appear that I'm disregarding or uninterested in replying or not valuing what was said to me, but that's not the case.  I hope you'll understand.

As always, your post was wise and perceptive.  Thank you for being willing to accommodate my boundaries -- I do struggle a little to think of them like that, because I find it hard to imagine anyone a bit self-aware who wouldn't have that boundary, but I'm taking the points you've made on-board.  There is one thing I'm struggling with, an option you didn't included:  I've had a string of people in my life who told me "home truths" not for my benefit but for their own.  (It becomes very clear when people are more attached to being right than to being friends.)  Maybe you haven't had those experiences, or maybe you're just better-natured than I am, but they're corrosive, and nowadays I find it very difficult to trust or give the benefit of the doubt up-front.  That's a boundary too.  And also a limitation.  [Wistfulness.  Regret.]

So:  you asked about my Moonwatcher moments.  (Moonwatcher is the name of the proto-human in my avatar.)  One of such moments I spoke about in my reply to Anne ( @PeppiPatty ), and that was my discovery of myotonia.  A label can be limiting, but it can also be a freedom, because for me the shame of physical and social incompetence dropped away, and I started to realise that if others couldn't understand it was *their* shortcoming, not mine.  Another one was seeing 2001, which spoke to me like nothing before and inspired me with a sense of purpose -- I set my sights on being a cosmologist, living and working on the Moon by the time I was forty, and that took me as far as studying physics and maths at university ... until Reagan strip-mined the human spirit and sold NASA off to commercial and military hucksters.  My resolve crumbled, and I lost my sense of purpose.

I went to the US, and actually scored an interview at NASA, and even a favourable (but limited) response to the question of employment.  But ... yeah:  "the current climate."  No foreseeable foreign hirings for at least ten years, and even then not in a purely scientific field.  NASA didn't do science anymore;  it did funded experiments for capital commerce and organised militarism.

Disillusionment doesn't begin to describe it -- invalidation may be closer, and certainly loss of reason and intent -- so I did what humans have done for thousands of years:  I went to the desert.  I tracked down someone who could teach me to do a Vision Quest (a Lakota woman who became my friend), and went to Arizona.  And had another Moonwatcher experience (in fact, literally) on the edge of the Grand Canyon.

This one night during the Quest I was sitting on a bluff, right on the edge of the canyon (I could never manage it these days, because as I've gotten older I seem to have developed an incredible fear of high, open spaces like cliffs and lookouts, but back then I seemed okay) with the drop right there at my toes and this yawning open chasm beckoning in front of me.  The desert night sky was truly awesome -- I remember feeling almost lifted into it -- and then ... the Moon.  This massive, gobsmacking pumpkin yellow moon sailed over the horizon at me, such a tangible presence I could almost feel its weight, like it was jostling me for access to the sky.  It was around three-quarters full, but the shadowed part wasn't dark -- it was a bluey-grey, lit by Earthlight, so you could still see its features ... and suddenly it was one of those moments when you get this joltingly clear sense of geometry and distance, of the Moon as a solid body floating in space, and by extension the Earth that way as well, and the Sun somewhere below the horizon, hidden from my sight and yet making this geometry visible and possible, and I was part of it and yet apart, a being hanging in space and infinitesimal compared to these massive bodies that yet were themselves tiny against the backdrop of all the worlds out there that I could see but not discern, the same geometries in infinite iterations ... and with a gush I suddenly encompassed them all just in realising they existed and were in my sight even though I couldn't see them, and still here I was sitting on the edge of the greatest chasm I had ever encountered and compared to it I was unimaginably small, and pointless, and ...

 In a sense, I've never recovered.  Or perhaps reverted is the word.  I feel I carry that infinitely large / unimaginably small impossible-yet-undeniable dchotomy inside me all the time.  Perhaps it's what we really are.  And I do wonder if that's what often moves me into silence.

Woof.  Now I'm ... distracted.  Before I go from this post, I will say:  thanks for your interest, CB.  I do get a sense of value and support from the conversation, in addition to the comradeship, so I'm very grateful.  If I haven't asked personal questions in return, it's really 'coz I don't know what's okay.  Remember that word, "boundaries" ?  😉

Slàn leibh,

Aonaran.

Re: Struggling to be

hi @Aenoran

Good good message. What does word mytonia mean? I still dont quite understand it. Even after the explanations. Dchotomy, too.

I just cant stop reading the 7th paragraph. What you write, dont know when youre there, doesnt matter...it felt like I was there.

 

Thank you for that experience, though real for you, I imagined I was actually there.

Wow. Cheers, Anne 

Re: Struggling to be

I dont feel constrained by time and instant messaging protocols and respect your long posts and personal rhythm. To post or not to post ...

It was wonderful to read your moment of awe at the Grand Canyon. Sorry to hear about your career disappointment but it fills in my understanding of you.

Beyond humility and hubris and all that .. we have to be fully who we are .... false, mannered self-deprecations give me the pip.

Thank you, you took me back to my youthful wonderings, science fiction and Geology pracs where we were handled Mars rocks all the way from NASA closest I have come ... now they take them out to the kids in the classroom .. but it was very unusual the first time I handled one.

You have not compromised your personal expression to fit in, like I have done. I will be taking more time out from the forums to depth back into myself ... silence is healing for me.

 

Re: Struggling to be

Hi @PeppiPatty Anne,

Thanks for the cheeriness, waving across the continent.  (You're in the West, yeah?  Sacred direction to the Celts.)

Myotonia?  Well, the "myo" means it's to do with muscles, and "myotonia" is to do with the way the muscles respond to stimulus.  For me, it means I have ... I guess you could call it an exaggerated level of fright when I feel threatened;  my muscles seize up and overrule my nerve-based reflexes.  For me, daily doses of magnesium have helped enormously.

And "dichotomy" -- well, that's a way of describing the difference between two things that seem to be mutually exclusive, but are nonetheless both true and real at the same time.  Like @CherryBomb's drawing -- was it a tree, or two animals?  Answer:  it's both.

I'm not sure if I've said, but I smile every time I see your Peppermint Patty avatar.  For no reason I've ever been aware of, she was always my favourite Peanuts character, so thanks! ;-).

 

and @Appleblossom,

mmm, I've felt out of my own skin and rhythms for so long now that I'm consciously trying to sink back into myself.  Even if it feels a bit bogged at times, I trust that I'll find my own buoyancy level, my own specific gravity.  So thank you for being willing to indulge that.

I can certainly identify with your feeling that silence is healing, as I think I've made pretty clear.  So I'll be cheering that for you.  And you brought your own memories back for me -- awesome time spent in the Smithsonian, seeing a real Apollo mission lunar landing module (not one that went to the Moon, obviously!) and actual Moon rocks brought back by Apollo 11, for me a kind of Holy Grail.  So incredible.  (I've never been to London -- only Heathrow to change planes -- but I still hope to get to the British Museum before I shuffle off.)  Lucky you to have seen Mars rocks up close!!  I'm so jealous!! 😉

(I'm sorry if I was clumsy responding to your post a few days ago -- I didn't mean anything untoward, but I'm actually quite shy at times and stuck for words when it really matters.  It's annoying.)

I hope whatever currents might take you away from the forum also bring you back in their own good measure.

Re: Struggling to be

Hey I was pleased to read your posts .. no apologies needed.

Its odd but I used my SF reading and the terraforming concept as a gardener .. rarely ever had a garden (mostly flats, acres of concrete and some rural) so had no experience. But as I dug in the clay (lots) and planted ..I thought on scale of cultivating planets, not a suburban plot.

My son's "gorgeous granpa" worked on Apollo.  I connected with ex husband on science but it did not sustain us through child rearing and different socioeconomic backgrounds. He was the poor little rich kid and I was the kid who got to good uni through grit and despite a lot of superstitious ignorance.

I have spent far more time on this forum than I intended but it is my first "chat room" experience .. my inlaws were all talking about them 15 years ago ...

thats ok .. off to practise with the frogs: Poulenc Durrufle Faure Messiaen.

cheers

Re: Struggling to be

Hi @Aenoran,

Thanks ! I luv peppermint patty ! Thanks. I've been thinking about magnesium ......... Bodily shock ....... My issue too ..... .....
Oh okay I'm going to have to look up diocotmy.
Get back to you.
Get back to you re @Appleblossom

Re: Struggling to be

Good evening @Aonaran,

I can relate to feeling like writing and communicating is an effort. I often need time-out to reflect, or sometimes to not think to formulate a response to something or someone. I'm certainly not one to be put on the spot - I really dislike it.  Because of this, I think, I'm sensitive to people needing time to reply for whatever reasons they have. Likewise, if I take time to respond, please know that sometimes I like to wait until I'm in a good headspace.

Thanks for hearing and taking my points on board. You raised an interesting point about people with 'home truths' - people attached to being right to the detriment of a relationship. I have had a few of these experiences, and found them to be painful lessons. It has taught me about (here's the magic word again) boundaries in terms of who I let into my life. It's made me weary of certain behaviors, though I try not to let previous negative experiences define every person I encounter. For me, it influenced the way I trust people. I guess the more I trust someone the more I let them in to my personal world. Some people I trust with certain aspects of myself, and there are others that I trust with others.

I often wonder about why some people feel attached to needing to be right - what does this say about their sense of self? Could it be that their sense of self is so rocky that nothing can question it? If this is the case, how can one really better themselves if there is nothing wrong?

Wow, your moonwatcher moment sounds as beautifully mesmerising at it was terrifying. I can't say that I've experienced anything quite like that. Though, the thought of multiple universes and how we - as humans - are a mere blimp in all of it makes my mind warp. I'm so intrigued by your background in cosmology, and what I presume would foster an expansive worldview - perhaps a universe view?

Speaking of which, I did a class a few months ago that introduced an interesting concept of a cosmopolitan worldview. It recognises that us humans inhabit the same world, which forms part of the larger cosmos. This worldview, therefore, asks us to view each human with universality, that we all share a common humanity with - irrespective of our nationhood, age, gender and so on... I realise it sounds a bit fluffy, but I think it's an interesting idea. It kind of makes me feel like our presence in the universe not so daunting and that perhaps we all in this together... somehow... Then again, earth might end up like the ghetto like in 'Elysium', where humans create a more an exclusive nation in outer space.... jeee wiz... I am rambling!

For some (and possibly related) reason, when I read your post. I thought of the movie, 'Moon' - Have you seen it? It is essentially a critique of capital commerce, the exploitation of natural resources and man. Would be keen to hear your thoughts on this.

Thanks so much for asking me about my boundaries - it's truly appreciated. Feel free to shoot questions at me and I will answer what I feel comfortable with. In general though, questions that make me feel uncomfortable are questions that will ask me to reveal bit of my identity (age, location and so on), but this is all covered in the guidelines. Sorry, I can't be more specific right now, I just can't think of anything black and white. I'm happy to share some personal information, but I tend to not give out specific details.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

CB

 

Re: Struggling to be

Dear @CherryBomb an @Armoran an @Appleblossom
Etc

I wanting to reply to @Former-Member but just want to write these messages are wonderfully interesting ........
But have a question ....... @CherryBomb talking about the cosmos and everything now I may be wrong please write if an but didn't Carl Jung say that everyone in the world ...... Sort of thought the same ? And then he developed his Archetypes on that premise ? Actually I should cheque with super clever @Aenoran as well .....

Re: Struggling to be


@Appleblossom wrote:

Hey I was pleased to read your posts .. no apologies needed.

Its odd but I used my SF reading and the terraforming concept as a gardener .. rarely ever had a garden (mostly flats, acres of concrete and some rural) so had no experience. But as I dug in the clay (lots) and planted ..I thought on scale of cultivating planets, not a suburban plot.

My son's "gorgeous granpa" worked on Apollo.  I connected with ex husband on science but it did not sustain us through child rearing and different socioeconomic backgrounds. He was the poor little rich kid and I was the kid who got to good uni through grit and despite a lot of superstitious ignorance.

I have spent far more time on this forum than I intended but it is my first "chat room" experience .. my inlaws were all talking about them 15 years ago ...

thats ok .. off to practise with the frogs: Poulenc Durrufle Faure Messiaen.

cheers


Heh-heh -- not really apologising, @Appleblossom, so much as suggesting you misperceived what I had meant.  No matter.  I still didn't mean to cause you any awkwardness. 😉

That's a heady mix of Frenchy frogs there!  I know a little Fauré, but not much of the others.  I'm more for the Russian Romantics myself.  Was I right in thinking you sing?